Hurricane Jesus: 4

Annabel's reply to my refutation

Carla,

We live in a fallen world (disaster, crime, suffering, etc) and right now Satan is the prince of this world. That is the reason why it cannot be restored what it was before the Fall of Man ( which came about because Adam had a free will to choose the right way or not) until Jesus comes back here on earth to claim His Lordship once again for a thousand years. At this time, God's plan is for people to be a part of His family here on earth by accepting His Son Jesus Chrsit as Lord and Savior. Read the Book of Job in the Bible and you will understand that God allows it for a purpose but it is Satan that carries it out. And to make it more clear to you, I would suggest that you read the whole chapter of Hebrews 11. Whether we live or die, if we are in faith to God through His Son Jesus Chrsit, we will always be winners. Since the salvation He offers is eternal. That is where we truly belong. This is where innocent babies truly belongs... not on this world that is fallen.

May you find His wisdom in your searching.

Anabelle

It was very kind of her to take the time, but I think she copped out.

Hurricane Jesus: 3

My reply to Annabel's list of reasons for suffering.

Annabel - thank-you for your reply.

With regards your list of possible reasons offered to account for suffering and evil in the world.
I propose an example of euffering and see if the reasons offered measure up. I'll stick with the hurricane analogy since that was were this all started.
A hurricane tears through a coastal village. A palm tree crashes through the roof of a fisherman's house and smashes into the cot where his youngest daughter, aged 6 months, is sleeping. The tree crushes the infant, but the poor child does not die immidiatly. With broken ribs and punctured lungs the infant takes half an hour of terrified agonised suffering, alone and cold before she dies.
Now, hold that image in your mind as we go through the 11 points you propose.
1. Free will. Nope, free will does not explain why the innocent child died so painfully. Nor should this child suffer so because of Adam's sin
2. God is powerless. Well it might seem that way, mighten't it. interestingly the only argument you offer aginst God's seeming powerlessness is that "does not != cannot" Because the other things you offer here are:
discipline people (Prov. 3: 11)
teach them (Prov. 15: 32).
Evidently, in the example of the baby killed in the hirricane, there is nothing to teach and no reason to punish.You offer at the end of the paragraph "It means that He simply has chosen not to do so." We come around to "mysterious ways"
3. How much evil should be stopped? I'd be satisfied with the stopping of the kinds of death and suffering we are discussing here, innocent lives through natural disaster. Lets get God to simply start there. No need to split hairs over murderers, theives, or thought crime. Lets just start with the inoocent babies OK?
4. Prevention of further evil. You admit yourself that this is a bit circular. In this paragraph you also invoke "mysterious ways"
5. For the greater plan. Since we cannot know the graeter plan, or understand how the death of a baby in a storm works towards that plan, I guess we are left with "mysterious ways" again.
6. For discipline and instruction. You touched on this already with point 2. We have already seen that a six month old child has no need for God's instruction or discipline through the media of agonising death.
7. It is the result of sin. Again, I find it morally questionable to hold an infant responsable for its parent's sins, or its ancestors' sins.
8. To serve as a warning. Ah! At last, a valid point. To serve as a warning: evidently in our example God would not be trying to warn the baby? So it would be to serve as a warning to her parents? Or perhaps to the rest of the world. So God will cause anguish and suffering and death of an infant to warn me of something? Can you see how I might view that proposition? Can you see that I might think God a little callous? A little heavy handed perhaps? He has to hurt babies to make us notice?
9. To make a point. This is a bit close to item 8, No? But in point 9, you again discuss Free Will, which we have already seen is not relevant in our example, and you suggest that often God let's us have what we deserve. If you are pressing towards the idea that it is our fault that the infant died, why did the baby have to suffer? Why torture the baby?
10. To serve as a means to bring the Son. As I read through this paragraph I couldn't believe the twisted logic: In order for us to be saved by Jesus, Jesus had to die. Without sin and suffering Jesus would not have been able to die. BUT DON'T YOU SEE? Without sin and suffering he wouldn't have had to die in the first place!
11. We don't know. And here we have it. All we end up with at the end is God's mysterious ways.

You can see Annabel, that in this 1 example, a baby dying a painful lonely death during a hurricane, there is no logical, undertandable means of understanding why the God you describe as being so full of love would let such things happen. I am made in his image, and yet none of my god-like emotions or god-given intellect can rationalise these things. God lets the innocent suffer. Regards

Carla

Hurricane Jesus: 2

Annabel from Campus Crusade for Christ. Her response to my mail on the problem of evil

Dear Carla,

Hi, my name is Anabelle and I wanted to thank you for visiting our whenhurricanesstrike.com web site.

I appreciate your desire to investigate the claims of Christ. This is definitely not a decision to be taken lightly, and if there is anything I can help you with on your spiritual journey, please let me know.

My hope and prayer for you is that you will experience God’s peace and plan for your life.

In your spiritual search for significance, consider asking God this prayer…”God, I don’t fully understand Your character or how to relate to You. Will You please reveal Yourself to me, so I can discover and experience who You are and the eternal security You alone offer?”

Christianity, unlike all other religions, is developing a relationship with God through His Son, Jesus Christ. In order to have a relationship with God, you need to understand four principles that govern your relationship with God. Go to www.4laws.com to see these principles, in almost any language you want.

Here are a couple of web sites that do an excellent job of describing Christianity and the claims of Christ...
- www.JesusFactOrFiction.com is a series of excellent multi-media presentations from notable sources exploring the life and claims of Jesus.
- www.WhoIsJesus-Really.com is translated in multiple languages and explains the life of Jesus, the miracles he performed, what others said about Him, how He has influenced the world and what all this means to you.
- Another great resource for you in finding answers to many puzzling spiritual questions is found at http://gotquestions.org/search.html


Please let me know how I can help you in your search for the truth.

Sincerely,

Anabelle

P.S. as for your question, here's my answer:

If God is all powerful and loving, why is there suffering in the world?


It is often asked why is there suffering in the world if God is all powerful and loving. Why doesn't He stop it? Can He or is He weaker than we think? Suffering can fall into three simple categories: emotional, mental, and physical suffering. But, there are a variety of causes for suffering: morally corrupt (evil) people, disease, earthquakes, floods, famine, etc.
There are different explanations for why God allows suffering, but none of them can satisfy everyone. Therefore, I will simply list various reasons offered to account for suffering and evil in the world.

1. Free will
1. God has given us freedom of choice. Having this freedom means that we can rebel against God and make choices that are contrary to His desires. Since we can say that evil is anything contrary to God's perfect and holy will, then anyone who chooses anything contrary to God's perfection is committing evil. But this is the risk of being able to have freedom of choice. Evil and suffering are the result of making bad free choices.
2. But how could this account for natural disasters and sickness that brings suffering? Biblically, Adam represented not only all of his descendents, but he was also the head of the created order since he was given dominion over the earth. Therefore, when he fell, sin entered into the world (Rom. 5:12) and with it the effects of being fallen spread to the earth as well as to humanity.
2. God cannot stop evil and suffering because He is powerless
1. Of course, this does not stand up to biblical truth. God allows evil to occur partly for reasons we do know and partly for those we do not. We know that God uses evil to discipline people (Prov. 3:11) and to teach them (Prov. 15:32). But we cannot know all the reasons that God has for allowing evil and suffering in the world. It is not logically necessary that since God has not stopped evil and suffering in the world, that He cannot. God could be using suffering for His divine plan, in order to teach, for discipline, because people are free, etc. The existence of suffering does not at all mean that God cannot stop all of it. It means that He simply has chosen not to do so.
3. How much evil should be stopped?
1. The question of stopping evil means that if God is to stop evil, then He must stop all evil. This means that the murderer must be stopped along with the thief. But it also means that thinking evil, which is in rebellion against God, must also be stopped as well; that is, if all evil is to be stopped. Therefore, for God to stop evil and suffering may very well mean that He must remove the ability for people to freely choose what they want to do. So, if God is going to stop evil, is He required to stop all of it or just some of it? If only some of it, then the question would still stand. If He stops all of it, would we be free?
4. Prevention of further evil
1. It is possible that human suffering (cancer, disease, etc.) can be a means that God uses to remove the person from further suffering, worse suffering, or future suffering. Of course, this not seem to be a very good option because if God or intending to stop further suffering, why would He use suffering to stop it? Also, what about floods and earthquakes that cause suffering? How would they fit into God decreasing or stopping suffering except perhaps by people's deaths which ends suffering? This is difficult to answer. Though it may be that God might use some suffering to prevent even greater suffering, this explanation cannot answer all issues concerning it.
5. For the greater plan
1. Undoubtedly, God has a plan. Since God knows all things He is not surprised by the presence of evil and sin in the world that brings about suffering. But if God knows all things from all eternity, then He is perfectly capable of using suffering in the world in His greater plan. The best and simplest example of this is the suffering of Christ at the hands of evil men. It is by Christ's suffering and death on across that we are able to be redeemed. It was God's plan from all eternity that Christ die for our sins yet Christ was crucified by evil people (Acts 4:27-28). This means that God had incorporated into His divine plan the reality of evil and suffering in order to accomplish His will. Of course, this does not mean that God is the author of evil, but it does mean that God is above it all and can use it to accomplish a greater good. If this is true on a large-scale, why cannot it also be true on a smaller one in each of our individual lives?
6. For discipline and instruction
1. The Bible tells us that God disciplines those whom He loves (Heb. 12:6) and that no true child of God is without discipline and instruction. It is obvious that the results of our rebellion against God brings suffering and it is also true that we can learn through our suffering that such rebellion is bad. We then could glorify God during and after our suffering by proclaiming the truth of His word that urges us to follow God and His ways.
Sometimes we learn our greatest lessons after having suffered the consequences of our actions -- and this is good. If we see that there are consequences through the acts of suffering in this world, it is logical to conclude that there will be suffering in the next as a consequence of our rebellion now. This could easily lead us to conclude that we need to be delivered from our rebellion against God. Of course, Jesus is the answer to this.
7. It is the result of sin
1. Biblically speaking, pain and suffering are the results of sin in the world. Adam, who represented all humanity as well as creation, rebelled against God and brought suffering into the world (Rom. 5:12). Sin is more than simple rebellion and breaking of God's law. It is permeating throughout all of God's creation bringing imbalance, famine, earthquakes, disease, etc. This does not mean that God created evil. Instead, it is God who is allowing evil and suffering to continue for His divine plan.
8. To serve as a warning
1. Evil and suffering in the world can serve as a warning against breaking God's law and then people can see the necessity of following God's truth. God's ways are right and good and following them leads to security and safety. The consequences of disobeying God's word are manifested in suffering. Therefore, suffering in the world easily serves as a demonstration of the need to follow God's words thereby vindicating what God has said
9. To make a point
1. It is possible that God is simply allowing evil and suffering in the world to prove that rebellion against Him brings pain and suffering. God may be allowing sin to take its natural course in the world so that on the day of judgment God can say "Do you see what rebellion against my words brings?" This may seem overly simplistic but it may prove to be one of the reasons that God allows pain and suffering. After all, did He not make us in His image and give us the freedom to choose? And in our freedom have we not rebelled? Yes, we have. Should God then make us robots or restrict our freedom so much that we have no choices at all? Of course not. But since we are limited in our knowledge and have used our freedom to rebel, God allows us to have what we desire and in the end, our sins will prove that God's way is the right way.
10. To serve as a means to bring the Son
1. The death of the Son is the means by which God has redeemed those who would receive Jesus. This death cannot occur if Jesus were not a man. In order to be a man he had to be born as one. But since Jesus was sinless, death has no power over Him. Therefore, in order to die and in order to redeem us, His death must be at the hands of evil people. But, without sin, suffering, and evil in the world, Jesus could not have been sent to the cross. So, it could be said that suffering in the world is necessary in order to bring about the cross which in turn demonstrates the great and awesome love of God. Jesus said that the greatest act of love is to lay one's life down for another (John 15:13). If God is love (1 John 4:8) and love gives (John 3:16), can it be that God must demonstrate the greatest act of love? If so, it can only be done through suffering in the world.
11. We don't know.
1. Biblically speaking, pain and suffering are the results of sin in the world. Adam, who represented all humanity as well as creation, rebelled against God and brought suffering into the world. This sin is more than simple rebellion and breaking of God's law. It is an offense against a holy God. Sin is permeating throughout all of God's creation bringing imbalance, famine, earthquakes, disease, etc. This is not have God created things but it is God who is allowing them to continue for his divine plan. Ultimately, we can't know all the reasons why God allows suffering, we just know that He does.


What does the Bible tell us that God has done about evil? It tells us that he sent to His Son Jesus to die for our sins and to deliver us from pain and suffering. Ultimately, God is allowing evil in the world for a purpose, otherwise, he would not let it exist. Therefore, we must trust Him that He knows what He is doing.

My reply in the next post.

Hurricane Jesus: 1

I was reading the Times online, and down at the bottom was a google ad that caught my eye. "God loves you even in a hurricane" it said. (Or something like that, I can't remember the details)
So I clicked on the ad and it took me here. When Hurricanes Strike. At least I know this one isn't a parody site :-) It's hosted by Campus Crusade for Christ.
It uses hurricanes as ametephor for stormy lives and suggests that I need Jesus to get me through the storm. It then walks through the "4 laws" and ends up with the sinner's prayer.
At the bottom of the page is a "Did you pray this prayer?" feedback button, and another titled "I still have questions". This is where I went. Having chosen the option "I am not a christian and I still have questions" I fired off the following response:

Why did god send the hurricane in the first place. Why would he kill people, and babies and animals? The hurricane wasn't caused by anyone's sin. Why would a loving god make us suffer? Why would a loving god hurt and kill babies?

The next day I received an automated acknowledgement:

This is to confirm that we have received your request for personal assistance. Please do not reply to this e-mail.
You should receive a personal response by e-mail within the next several business days.
Sincerely,
Response Centers staff

I didn't expect much but yesterday I had a response from Annabel. It's a bit long and it's addressed to "Carla" who is the pseudo I use when I want to guard my real email address. To stop this post becomming hugely long I'll post the correspondence in consecutive posts.